Discussion:
The Blind Men and the Elephant.
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Jim Gettys
2018-02-12 01:11:15 UTC
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My version is up: dunno why the ietf web site doesn't have it up yet (It
was supposed to go up 7pm ET).

https://gettys.wordpress.com/2018/02/11/the-blind-men-and-the-elephant/

We will push this on social media first thing in the morning. Those of you
in Europe, please do so as well (it's best to get the ball rolling in the
morning in Europe before the western hemisphere wakes up).

Thank you all for all of your help. I have tried to credit everyone
appropriately as best I can.

All the best,

Jim
e***@telenor.com
2018-02-12 14:09:56 UTC
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Good post! I'm spreading this internally in Telenor (ISP and mobile operation). Trying to educate the Mobile side before we start building 5G.


-Erik



________________________________
Fra: Bloat <bloat-***@lists.bufferbloat.net> på vegne av Jim Gettys <***@freedesktop.org>
Sendt: 12. februar 2018 02:11
Til: bloat
Emne: [Bloat] The Blind Men and the Elephant.

My version is up: dunno why the ietf web site doesn't have it up yet (It was supposed to go up 7pm ET).

https://gettys.wordpress.com/2018/02/11/the-blind-men-and-the-elephant/

We will push this on social media first thing in the morning. Those of you in Europe, please do so as well (it's best to get the ball rolling in the morning in Europe before the western hemisphere wakes up).

Thank you all for all of your help. I have tried to credit everyone appropriately as best I can.

All the best,

Jim
Jim Gettys
2018-02-12 14:27:12 UTC
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The IETF blog copy is up.

I gather the IETF home page is next, sometime later today or tomorrow.
- Jim
Post by e***@telenor.com
Good post! I'm spreading this internally in Telenor (ISP and mobile
operation). Trying to educate the Mobile side before we start building 5G.
-Erik
________________________________
Sendt: 12. februar 2018 02:11
Til: bloat
Emne: [Bloat] The Blind Men and the Elephant.
My version is up: dunno why the ietf web site doesn't have it up yet (It
was supposed to go up 7pm ET).
https://gettys.wordpress.com/2018/02/11/the-blind-men-and-the-elephant/
We will push this on social media first thing in the morning. Those of
you in Europe, please do so as well (it's best to get the ball rolling in
the morning in Europe before the western hemisphere wakes up).
Thank you all for all of your help. I have tried to credit everyone
appropriately as best I can.
All the best,
Jim
_______________________________________________
Bloat mailing list
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
Jim Gettys
2018-02-12 14:36:00 UTC
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Anyone on the list a budding poet, interested in taking my text and
composing a poem
something like the original by Saxe? That would be quite a hoot, if it can
be done.
Your non-poetic friend,

Jim
Post by Jim Gettys
The IETF blog copy is up.
I gather the IETF home page is next, sometime later today or tomorrow.
- Jim
Post by e***@telenor.com
Good post! I'm spreading this internally in Telenor (ISP and mobile
operation). Trying to educate the Mobile side before we start building 5G.
-Erik
________________________________
Sendt: 12. februar 2018 02:11
Til: bloat
Emne: [Bloat] The Blind Men and the Elephant.
My version is up: dunno why the ietf web site doesn't have it up yet (It
was supposed to go up 7pm ET).
https://gettys.wordpress.com/2018/02/11/the-blind-men-and-the-elephant/
We will push this on social media first thing in the morning. Those of
you in Europe, please do so as well (it's best to get the ball rolling in
the morning in Europe before the western hemisphere wakes up).
Thank you all for all of your help. I have tried to credit everyone
appropriately as best I can.
All the best,
Jim
_______________________________________________
Bloat mailing list
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
Jonathan Morton
2018-02-12 18:39:52 UTC
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Anyone on the list a budding poet, interested in taking my text and composing a poem
something like the original by Saxe? That would be quite a hoot, if it can be done.
I can make a start:

It was few men of industry,
To learning much inclined,
Who sought to fix the Internet,
(With market share in mind),
That evil of congestion,
Might soon be left behind.

Definitely, the pipe-men say,
A wider link we laud,
For congestion occurs only
When bandwidth exceeds baud.
If only the reverse were true,
We would all live like lords.

[...]

And so these men of industry,
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion,
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
Yet mostly in the wrong!

So, oft in technologic wars,
The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance,
Of what each other mean,
And prate about an Internet,
Not one of them has seen!

Let's see if I can fill in a few more stanzas...

- Jonathan Morton
Jim Gettys
2018-02-12 19:14:33 UTC
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Love it!

Jim
Post by Jim Gettys
Post by Jim Gettys
Anyone on the list a budding poet, interested in taking my text and
composing a poem
Post by Jim Gettys
something like the original by Saxe? That would be quite a hoot, if it
can be done.
It was few men of industry,
To learning much inclined,
Who sought to fix the Internet,
(With market share in mind),
That evil of congestion,
Might soon be left behind.
Definitely, the pipe-men say,
A wider link we laud,
For congestion occurs only
When bandwidth exceeds baud.
If only the reverse were true,
We would all live like lords.
[...]
And so these men of industry,
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion,
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
Yet mostly in the wrong!
So, oft in technologic wars,
The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance,
Of what each other mean,
And prate about an Internet,
Not one of them has seen!
Let's see if I can fill in a few more stanzas...
- Jonathan Morton
Jim Gettys
2018-02-13 00:13:07 UTC
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Ok, I've revised the posting.

Jonathan Morton came through with a poem. ;-).

Our apologies to John Godfrey Saxe.

There's still a bit of polish maybe possible. I'd like to get the idea of
"there lies madness" into the stanza on economics.

Have a good chuckle!
- Jim
Ok, I put the poem up as is.
Think about that stanza overnight.
Clearly, it's the "Six men of Interstan" ;-). I tweaked those words.
Jim
Somehow I want to get the "there lies madness" theme in.
I'll have to sleep on that one. It's difficult to say precisely what you
want within a fixed number of syllables, while also keeping to rhyme and
metre.
- Jonathan Morton
Jonathan Morton
2018-02-17 12:39:47 UTC
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There's still a bit of polish maybe possible. I'd like to get the idea of "there lies madness" into the stanza on economics.
How about this:

But count the cost, if bandwidth had
No end, money-men say,
Perpetual upgrade cycle;
True madness lies that way.
To keep demand in check requires
Each byte a toll to pay.

- Jonathan Morton
Jonathan Morton
2018-02-17 13:20:30 UTC
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Post by Jim Gettys
There's still a bit of polish maybe possible.
Another tiny tweak to the Diffserv stanza:

But choosing which is which presents
New problems in all arts.

- Jonathan Morton

Jan Ceuleers
2018-02-12 16:23:14 UTC
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Post by Jim Gettys
My version is up: dunno why the ietf web site doesn't have it up yet (It
was supposed to go up 7pm ET).
https://gettys.wordpress.com/2018/02/11/the-blind-men-and-the-elephant/
We will push this on social media first thing in the morning.  Those of
you in Europe, please do so as well (it's best to get the ball rolling
in the morning in Europe before the western hemisphere wakes up).
Thank you all for all of your help.  I have tried to credit everyone
appropriately as best I can.
Jim, an important audience for this blog is in China - that's where a
lot of the R&D of home routers happens. I know that China is currently
rushing to get things finished before Chinese New Year. I submit that
you need to think about a relaunch when China is back.
Jim Gettys
2018-02-12 17:09:00 UTC
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Post by Jan Ceuleers
Post by Jim Gettys
My version is up: dunno why the ietf web site doesn't have it up yet (It
was supposed to go up 7pm ET).
https://gettys.wordpress.com/2018/02/11/the-blind-men-and-the-elephant/
We will push this on social media first thing in the morning. Those of
you in Europe, please do so as well (it's best to get the ball rolling
in the morning in Europe before the western hemisphere wakes up).
Thank you all for all of your help. I have tried to credit everyone
appropriately as best I can.
Jim, an important audience for this blog is in China - that's where a
lot of the R&D of home routers happens. I know that China is currently
rushing to get things finished before Chinese New Year. I submit that
you need to think about a relaunch when China is back.
​Good point.

And they play musical chairs over New Years too.
- Jim
​
Post by Jan Ceuleers
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Dave Taht
2018-02-12 17:55:18 UTC
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I would certainly like to see translations and outreach into China...
Taiwan... Japan... India... Central and South America... Africa...

but to me the simpler thing would be to garner folk to ask at
vendor/isp press conferences: "Have you implemented RFC8290 yet? If
not, when?"
Jan Ceuleers
2018-02-12 18:13:46 UTC
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Post by Dave Taht
I would certainly like to see translations and outreach into China...
Taiwan... Japan... India... Central and South America... Africa...
but to me the simpler thing would be to garner folk to ask at
vendor/isp press conferences: "Have you implemented RFC8290 yet? If
not, when?"
Devil's advocate: "I don't intend to implement this because, as the
document says, it is only intended for examination, experimental
implementation and evaluation. I make real products, not experimental-ones."
Jonathan Morton
2018-02-12 18:18:12 UTC
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Post by Jan Ceuleers
Post by Dave Taht
but to me the simpler thing would be to garner folk to ask at
vendor/isp press conferences: "Have you implemented RFC8290 yet? If
not, when?"
Devil's advocate: "I don't intend to implement this because, as the
document says, it is only intended for examination, experimental
implementation and evaluation. I make real products, not experimental-ones."
In which case it might be helpful to have ready a list of a number of "experimental" RFCs, to which common product categories can be expected to conform already. There might be a surprising number of them.

- Jonathan Morton
Dave Taht
2018-02-12 19:19:40 UTC
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Post by Jan Ceuleers
Post by Dave Taht
I would certainly like to see translations and outreach into China...
Taiwan... Japan... India... Central and South America... Africa...
but to me the simpler thing would be to garner folk to ask at
vendor/isp press conferences: "Have you implemented RFC8290 yet? If
not, when?"
Devil's advocate: "I don't intend to implement this because, as the
document says, it is only intended for examination, experimental
implementation and evaluation. I make real products, not experimental-ones."
Certainly at the time we started the RFC (2013? sigh...), we
considered FQ_Codel experimental. After a flood of very useful papers
( a bunch of which jg cites, more on google scholar), and a ton of
actual deployment, I grew pretty confident it could actually go
standards track, but by then it was very late in the process. The
"last" patches for fq_codel arrived (and are in the RFC8290), for
doing a bulk drop on overload, and for leveraging pre-existing
(hardware or vpn offloaded) hash information only a year ago.

( https://www.mail-archive.com/***@ietf.org/msg01783.html )

- but there have been continuous improvements all over the stack,
notably in the flow dissector, and there is work around it trying to
make things more lockless.

And that said, even the august, 2012, implementation of fq_codel was
and remains totally deployable.

I certainly consider the other main RFC (pie) far more experimental
than fq_codel is, as it had not seen any deployment. I'd had high
hopes we'd see it in at least one piece of Cisco's gear by now.

pie-docsis 3.1 is now available in 3 devices, so I'm looking forward
to results from there.

There are still some other pieces of work, like L2S and BBR, that
affect primarily the codel+ecn parts of the algorithm, that I hope
settle down one day.

I figure we'd aim for an rfc8290bis after, say, two more years of
deployment, somehow incorporating the work we did on "ending the
anomaly" in wifi, and I'd hope, also for a hardware and LTE
implementation.

I don't intend for what's in sch_cake to end up as an RFC. It's dual
BSD/GPL licensed and I'd hope that would be enough.

Needed is something "else" that would address the rate limiting and
queue management needs of the ISP->home part of the connection without
doing all the work on the home router. that's something that I'd hope
the chip makers were already all over. Could use a dpdk
implementation.
--
Dave Täht
CEO, TekLibre, LLC
http://www.teklibre.com
Tel: 1-669-226-2619
Aaron Wood
2018-02-13 06:35:51 UTC
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I'd focus on the distributors of the Linux BSP used on those routers: the
silicon vendors themselves. Current routers shouldn't be shipping with 3.2
kernels, or even 3.10, and yet... ::sigh::

I find it very frustrating they they fork the kernel for their own use,
instead of maintaining patches for the vanilla kernels.
Post by Dave Taht
I would certainly like to see translations and outreach into China...
Taiwan... Japan... India... Central and South America... Africa...
but to me the simpler thing would be to garner folk to ask at
vendor/isp press conferences: "Have you implemented RFC8290 yet? If
not, when?"
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Mikael Abrahamsson
2018-02-14 14:04:26 UTC
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Post by Dave Taht
but to me the simpler thing would be to garner folk to ask at
vendor/isp press conferences: "Have you implemented RFC8290 yet? If
not, when?"
Has anyone implemented FQ_CODEL in a packet accelerator, or is this still
a CPU thing only?
--
Mikael Abrahamsson email: ***@swm.pp.se
Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2018-02-14 14:30:37 UTC
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Post by Mikael Abrahamsson
Post by Dave Taht
but to me the simpler thing would be to garner folk to ask at
vendor/isp press conferences: "Have you implemented RFC8290 yet? If
not, when?"
Has anyone implemented FQ_CODEL in a packet accelerator, or is this still
a CPU thing only?
AFAIK it's still software-only, sadly...

-Toke
Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2018-02-12 16:42:17 UTC
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Post by Jim Gettys
My version is up: dunno why the ietf web site doesn't have it up yet (It
was supposed to go up 7pm ET).
https://gettys.wordpress.com/2018/02/11/the-blind-men-and-the-elephant/
Excellent post! And I blush at the number of times my work is cited;
thanks! :D

-Toke
Jonathan Foulkes
2018-02-12 19:19:03 UTC
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Wow, excellent post Jim!

Great summary of the progress and status as of this date.

It is indeed hard to believe more in the industry don’t get it or if they do, adopt it.

Also, loved this: “How many of you have successfully configured your home router QOS page, without losing hair from your head.” Which is why the IQrouter has no QoS UI, just a couple of buttons to re-start the automatic optimization run if you change service levels. Everything else is hidden.

And there is some hope for ISPs, as a very Woke local ISP now rents / sells IQrouters to their users, as it was the only way to keep their rural DSL and Cable customers happy. But I had to spend four hours (across multiple meetings) educating them on the topic of bufferbloat and its mitigations.

Thanks again,

Jonathan Foulkes
CEO - Evenroute.com
Post by e***@telenor.com
My version is up: dunno why the ietf web site doesn't have it up yet (It was supposed to go up 7pm ET).
https://gettys.wordpress.com/2018/02/11/the-blind-men-and-the-elephant/ <https://gettys.wordpress.com/2018/02/11/the-blind-men-and-the-elephant/>
We will push this on social media first thing in the morning. Those of you in Europe, please do so as well (it's best to get the ball rolling in the morning in Europe before the western hemisphere wakes up).
Thank you all for all of your help. I have tried to credit everyone appropriately as best I can.
All the best,
Jim
_______________________________________________
Bloat mailing list
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
Dave Taht
2018-02-12 19:37:30 UTC
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On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:19 AM, Jonathan Foulkes
Post by Jonathan Foulkes
Wow, excellent post Jim!
Great summary of the progress and status as of this date.
It is indeed hard to believe more in the industry don’t get it or if they
do, adopt it.
Relevant today: https://rule11.tech/reaction-the-pace-of-innovation/
Post by Jonathan Foulkes
Also, loved this: “How many of you have successfully configured your home
router QOS page, without losing hair from your head.” Which is why the
IQrouter has no QoS UI, just a couple of buttons to re-start the automatic
optimization run if you change service levels. Everything else is hidden.
And there is some hope for ISPs, as a very Woke local ISP now rents / sells
IQrouters to their users, as it was the only way to keep their rural DSL and
Cable customers happy. But I had to spend four hours (across multiple
meetings) educating them on the topic of bufferbloat and its mitigations.
I used to go to disbeliever's homes to set it up

I'd hope that with more makers such as you, with in the game, could
make bigger wins in the market.

AT&T, for example, still has an enormous DSL base that they could sell
new gear into.

The market for GPON ONTs is hot, and that would be nice to tackle.
Then there's 5G....
Post by Jonathan Foulkes
Thanks again,
Jonathan Foulkes
CEO - Evenroute.com
My version is up: dunno why the ietf web site doesn't have it up yet (It was
supposed to go up 7pm ET).
https://gettys.wordpress.com/2018/02/11/the-blind-men-and-the-elephant/
We will push this on social media first thing in the morning. Those of you
in Europe, please do so as well (it's best to get the ball rolling in the
morning in Europe before the western hemisphere wakes up).
Thank you all for all of your help. I have tried to credit everyone
appropriately as best I can.
All the best,
Jim
_______________________________________________
Bloat mailing list
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
_______________________________________________
Bloat mailing list
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
--
Dave Täht
CEO, TekLibre, LLC
http://www.teklibre.com
Tel: 1-669-226-2619
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